Read below but latest news from Armando 13th July • Things seem to have calmed down. The next act will take us, like Chorus in Henry V would go jumping across the channel, to the elections in 2014.
The Internet opens up the world… so when you want to know what is happening in Brazil, you don’t have to rely on the newspapers skewing things in their chosen direction, you can ask Brazilians directly…
I posted a discussion on the Rotary International LinkedIn Group and also my Business in Berkshire LinkedIn Group. It’s interesting to hear the reality from Brazil and read the considered opinion of why from closer to home.
What is happening in Brazil? (The Brazilian view)
Watching the riots in Brazil this morning on the BBC my son (13) asks me, “Why are they rioting because the bus fares have gone up?”
I said it must be deeper than that and determined I would find some real answers to his questions because it’s not just Brazil, it feels like it is happening everywhere…
I figured the best place to ask for feedback would be in the Rotary International LinkedIn Group as there will be members who know what is really happening and I would like to have a real facts to go on rather than the propaganda that we are suppose to believe is the reality… written by those on salaries, sitting behind desks with all their essential needs immediately at hand.
Please share what you believe is happening…
2 days ago
Jon, let me try to explain. We, Brazilians, know that we pay a lot of taxes and this money is completly unequal to the public services. It was crossed in our throats a long time. One virtual NGO, or something like that, believes that transportation and culture should be free to all the people and the last bus fare raise started one protest, in Sao Paulo downtown.
After that, other protests followed this, with fights against police. Police that started the fights to let the traffic free. Of course, these protests were causing great traffic jams.
But police was overaggressive and hurted people that were near to the protests and media professionals. When they hurted media professionals, media turned against police and made public opinion support the protests.
Then it was made a great protest about bus fare and police repression. After this, the society understood that protest is not wrong and everything that is wrong in Brazil became a new reason to protest. People is angry about a poor health public service, a poor educational public service, get 2 hours in traffic to go to work, about the representativeness of the parliaments.
Trying to express in one sentece: A lot of people is angry about a lot of things and realized that they can express themselves
2 days ago • Like5
I was a GSE team leader to Espritu Santo in 2008 and hosted an inbound Brazilian team last year. I have been reading my Brazilian friends Facebook pages and deciphering their comments with my weak Portuguese language ability.
From what I am reading, Brazilians believe the government and the political parties are corrupt, the people are not heard, and the government is spending tons of money to build stadiums for the World Cup and the Olympics. They want better schools and health care as mentioned above.
This appears to be an unorganized movement with people reaching a tipping point and are coming out to protest in most cases non-violently. In fact most of the protesters are urging no violence and no vandalism. The pictures I have seen on their pages are of huge groups of peaceful people filling the streets, not violence.
2 days ago • Like1
This correlates with what I’ve heard from my Brazilian friends. Brazil’s economy has been growing at amazing rates, but the benefits have barely been felt throughout the country. My friends have attributed it to government mismanagement and political corruption.
And asking for an update in the RI group was a *great* idea 🙂
1 day ago • Like2
Please, watch this video to understand why the Brazilian people are protesting on the streets
We’re massacred by the government’s taxes, yet when we leave home in the morning to go to work, we don’t know if we’ll make it home alive because of the violence.
We don’t have good schools for our kids. Our hospitals are in awful shape. Corruption is rife. These protests will make history and wake our politicians up to the fact that we’re not taking it anymore!
We Brazilians decided to leave our comfort zone to tell our leaders that we’re not happy about the way things are going.
1 day ago
@Jonathan, there seems to be three things going on at the same time. First, an organized group is making nonsense demands trying to develop some political presence. If you read Zola’s Germinal you may know what I mean. Second there are thugs and vandals who are using the demonstrations to express their antisocial nature. An Austro-German politician of the first half of the 20th Century run some groups like that with profitable results — for some time.
Finally, there is a middle-class that got fed up with the political system as a whole and a hypocritical and demagogue left wing government that tries to stay perpetually in power in particular. This group is p-e-a-c-e-f-u-l-l-y saying that time is ripe for a change, though no one seems to know what such change should be or come from. Anyway, these are the good guys and the world should root for them.
The interesting fact is that these demonstrations are similar to those staged by the middle class in 1964 to protest against what was understood as — guess what! — a corrupt left wing government that wanted to remain in power forever. That led to the 1964 parliamentary coup d’etat that ousted the president and the subsequent imposition of an authoritarian development-minded government headed by a moderate army officer — before things turned really tough between 1968 and 1976 and returned to a fully representative democracy during the decennial between 76-86.
To watch: what, if anything, is going to happen in Argentina and Venezuela?
@Erin, to understand how true Brazilian growth is, check Zero Mostel’s movie ‘The Producers’.
I ‘ll try to pitch on my two cents… It is not easy to summarize this in 4000 characters – So, I will deliver this post in three parts.
I live in Brazil since 2001, and after all these years, and being married to a Brazilian, I still have a foreigner living in Brazil point of view. By the way, both my wife and I are serving in Rotary.
First – Brazilians are peace loving people, and they try to move on as much as they can despite adversity. Don’t get me wrong – peaceful does not mean insensible to the reality surrounding them. Brazilians even joke about paying too much taxes, corruption schemes, public safety, and they become quite ironic about their elected officials outrageous salaries and perks while the government short changes education and health investments and attention.
Second – There is a pressure cooker effect. For many years, despite the huge economic expansion and the growth of the middle class, urban Brazilians have seen their quality of life decreasing and becoming difficult and dangerous. Public safety has become an issue, due to a failing justice system that has been unable to keep corruption (at all levels) and day-to-day crime under control. Thus, there is a generalized feeling of impunity, leaving crooks going freely in the streets while abiding citizens run for cover in seclusion in their homes, inverting the logic of public safety. Power, water and trash collection utility bills are highly priced for the quality level received, and fuel costs are staggering due to outrageous taxes embedded in such bills. In other words, Brazilians pay high for failing public services and fuel to move around. Airfares, for instance, are the highest per mile flown in the world, and this is particularly troublesome in a country of continental dimensions, poorly maintained roadways, and ruined railways.
Third – Corruption is widely spread and this has been going on for too long without punishment for high-level cases involving government officials and legislators. This, augmented by the rampant investments in the public works directly related to the World Cup, which in the view of many are unjustified given the poor situation of hospitals, schools and public transportation, has sparked, not by itself, but in addition of the other economic and social problems in a rapid ascending rate, to pressure cooker effect already described. The trigger was the increase of the public transportation fares in the largest cities (about 20 cents, equivalent to 10 cents of a dollar or 7,5%), and the public relations campaigns on these issues were poorly carried out or non-existent. Also, transparency and accountability has been a problem. Local, state and federal government accountability has been blurred at best, and the citizens have become very critical of the investments in stadiums and all related improvements, which are plagued by budget overruns and unmet construction schedules.
Fourth – The media. Like in most emerging economies and democracies, the media play a prominent role, either covering little or too much depending on the agenda of vested interests. It is interesting to note that most of the initial coverage portrayed the protests as “riots”, and most of the attention was given to the damages to businesses, metro stations, and burning buses. On the other hand, the local police came down very hard on protesters, mostly pacific, while a minority of vandals infiltrated the mass demonstrations, and the police failed to detect their rioting on time. This went on for the first couple of days, but the turnaround came out when leaders of the “free pass” (translated as open bus fare movement) caught the attention of media and local government officials, and demanded their right to protest with police protection, since the same vandals rioting were also attacking protesters. At the end, because the accusations of police excess, the following two days resulted in huge damages by a small group of vandals that swept around wildly and out of control, due to the absence of the police.
Fifth – The conjuncture. Protests that started in São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Brasilia escalated to many other cities, the police was kept in the precincts, and a minority of wild rioters went truly wild. All this is happening in a moment that Brazil is receiving the world’s attention due to the FIFA Confederate Soccer Cup, which is in essence a “test” one year before the FIFA World Soccer Cup to be held in June-July 2014. By this time, national news captioned and the size of the march of protesters increased geometrically, because the took a hitch on the “free pass” to include many other pending issues that were encroached in the contained feelings of many for long, as explained. Thus, the protest became huge, to reach 1,2 million on Thursday, June 20, and the government officials “attempted to negotiate” – But there was no clear intermediaries… The protests, apparently composed by individuals without party affiliations, had no pre-established leadership or agenda, and the widespread discontent of citizens. Therefore, the government, even at the highest levels (President Dilma Rousseff) understood that the protests were genuine and a “valid expression of democracy”, and has issued releases offering dialogue – but, everyone is asking “dialogue with whom? – the only thing government needs to do is to govern, ca k on corruption, end impunity, improve public services, and be transparent about priorities to address citizen’s needs.”
What is ahead – Many sociologists and political analysts are calling these events an “awakening” of Brazilian people as a whole. Pushed by a mostly young-aged crowd that has been recently quiet, and a mid-aged population that has been “dragged” by the young, and kept complaining of long but not taking action such as expressing publicly their unconformity, the protests have put the government and the Congress on the spot, and next year, aside from the World Cup, there are national elections. While President Rousseff has been scoring high in acceptance rates, there have been recent scandals involving close allies to former President Lula, and this has sparked a real sense of danger in the political establishment. Many legislators are accused of excesses and the people is demanding the withdrawal of special justice tribunals to judge the corrupts. Also, the whole system of public bids, especially those related to infrastructure development (health, education, prisons, roadways, airports, rail) are on the spotlight, and there is a request to carry on more openly and with accountability.
Also, the leftists are blaming the right wingers and vice-versa about the degradation of public services and education, which continue to slide Brazil down the ladder while being the seventh or eight world economic power. There is a whole mess in terms of ideological positions, given that Lula-Rousseff are moderate left but they have a lot of extreme leftists in their Workers Party (PT – Partido dos Trabalhadores).
Finally, my two cents… I am cautiously optimistic about the outlook of Brazil as society which is experiencing “growing pains”. This country is not exactly the “Latin-American country” as viewed by The U.S. or Europe or Japan – For instance, I believe that countries like China and probably couple of neighbors understand better (not because they are smarter but because they share some of the same challenges) what is going on, and that there is a need of a calm but tolerant way out to avoid turmoil. In Brazil, this is a positive happening, since many Brazilians were losing hope about demanding their public servants to address corruption, and health and education. There is no room for political advantage takers or adventurous. There are prominent needs and there still huge socio-economic disparities, and the country is quite conscious of poverty issues that cannot take the back seat, while the middle-class continues to grow. “Nobody can be left behind”, and the government needs to put action where their mouth is:
The government slogan is “País rico é país sem pobreza” – A Wealthy country is a country without poverty”.
In conclusion – Brazil is fertile ground for Rotary action. There is so much to be done, and the challenge is to harness the good will of Brazilians, and through Rotarians around the world we can do significant, sound, sustainable and sensible community projects that can be replicated in other latitudes. After all, Brazil is much beyond soccer and Carnival… there is a lot of social conscience which has “awakened” in the eyes of the world, but there is a good heart that is pulsing to bring everyone around here to a dignified and happy life… Happy as Brazilians are.
I hope this “short” summary helps.
One thing I forgot – I would not confuse this “Brazilian awakening” with the “Arab Spring” or the “Occupy Wall Street” and such. Brazilians do not have in mind overthrowing the government, despite claims by the Left that “there is a hidden hand of the Right wing”. Brazil has a well sowed election tradition. Indeed, Brazilians just want a more just society, and an end of what is considered widespread corruption and impunity, which in turn affect priorities in investment in health and education. Like they are saying now around here: “This is not about the 20 cents” [fare increase].
20 hours ago
Brasil is a Great Country! The central government has problems with corruption but these are solvable. The Greatest need is public Education and Literacy! Second is Health CARE! Both are also solvable but they require changes in priorities by local,state and central governments. Leadership must come from both government officials and private sectors of education and health! The protests are definitely not about transportation fares but rather about ineffective corrupt government!
Rotary Global Grants one of which I have proposed # 26363 in district 4420, would certainly demonstrate how these problems could be solved!
What is happening in Brazil? (The Berkshire view)
Jon, This is political, social and economic. History tells us that when you provide (relative) wealth and leisure to previously very poor people (typically subsistence farming) they use their wealth & leisure to express views that differ from the more privileged ruling classes. Britain in the 19th century, the US in the early 1930’s….plenty of examples. There’s often an economic effect from a sudden increase in perceived wealth – an asset bubble – as in US housing in the 2000’s – everybody has a little bit more money, so they stretch a bit more….and then the bubble bursts.
2 days ago
Agree Tim, but also perception of how corruption impoverishes emerging economies, especially Asian & Latin American, highlighted by internet. The Chinese cannot be far behind !
2 days ago
If you have ever done any business in Brazil (or South America in general) you will know why – they are right up there in opening any discussions with what the backhander will make them – premier league I would say. Tim is essentially correct, it is a natural part of the economic development cycle…..
But let’s face it, the UK and EU has it’s fair share of corruption as well – my main overseas business trading was done with either HK /China and Italy – the latter are legendary for knowing when the correct customs officials are on the border crossings into Switzerland – and therefore when it’s time for a trip with a well-laden boot!! It amazes me that Italy has done as well as it has, but it is surely all coming home to roost now!!
1 day ago
Jonathan L Davey
1 day ago
I am sure much of this is correct – but this is so clearly a politically sculpted video with a pretty Brazilian (i.e. stereotyped – if she is indeed a Brazilian) – that it has provoked quiet a riot on the utube comments – some great Saturday morning ranting going on.
Brasil is a BRIC country – if they want to get up the economic league table they should be capable of hosting a global tournament at the sport in which they excel on a global stage…or what hope is there for them really??
The problem is almost certainly that FIFA has screwed all the cash out of them…..so maybe they should be making a substantial gesture.
South Africa 2010 – they were delighted to host it!!
1 day ago
Good morning Jonathan, John and Rob.
Just coming for to join this group, because my friend told me, I saw this discussion about Brasil.
Well…, I can telling you that Brasil is a country, where the population is saying:
“Enough is Enough! For years and years, we ( I am brasilian as well) saw a lot corruption from politicians, the money from our taxes going to the lavish life of these people that said represent us in the Camara.
Unfortunately, the Truth is not just twenty centavos, but the population is tired of liars,bad administration and evasion of ours (Public) money to make rich politicians.
I am sorry, but I never agreed in to have the World Cup in Brasil, exist much more urgent priorities to make and resolve.
1 day ago • Like1
Sandra – welcome to the group. even if it has taken disorder in Brasil to find BinB. None of what you say surprises me, it is typical of what countries go through as they climb the economic ladder. The development of the British economy was just the same over hundreds of years – but the internet and satellite TV were not around to publicise it.
I hope you won’t think I am being too cynical when I say that I am surprised that people think emerging economies will do anything other than follow this rather sad course of events. Revolution might follow – but do you really want to follow the North Korean, Chinese or Russian model?
Staging events like the World Cup are as much as anything a symbol that a country has arrived as a major world player, it’s a vote of trust and confidence as much as anything else, and will of course be driven by the political aspirations of your leaders who want to be taken seriously on the world stage…but the Olympics as well in 2 years is surely asking too much….can’t help thinking this was asking for trouble to have both!!
Russia in 2018, Qatar in 2022…..they will manage to stage the event reasonably well I am sure, albeit there has no doubt been some fairly dubious dealings done to get the nominations. Brasil has to show that it can live in the big leagues if it applies to hold these events, I suspect that you would suggest that that they are not quite there yet?
1 day ago
Can I add another possible perspective?
It’s largely protesting by a generation (who have grown up with free access to information via the net) who are questioning the long standing & accepted wisdom that a country has ‘arrived’ by staging such events and accepting all that comes with it.
The ‘it’ they are being coerced into accepting is nearly all the money from the world cup lands in the pockets of FIFA, and the money from the Olympics in the pockets of large corporations. Despite being absurdly proud of (and in attendance at) London 2012 – there is absolutely no denying it was a corporate-owned gig. You’d have to pretty blind and / or delusional to think otherwise.
Sandra is absolutely correct. What (mainly) young Brasilians are essentially saying is “bugger the prestige”. We want a better standard of living for all concerned in our country first and ‘prestige’ second. Bus fares were a useful catalyst – but not the main reason behind the protests.
They are fighting for the right to choose when they are ready to be considered prestigious – rather than have bureaucrats and industrialists a very long way from the coal face of day to day Brasilian society – decide that for them.
That’s really a fight for democracy isn’t it? Do our government, or the US government, or any other ‘1st’ world government listen to their people any better than those of Brasil? Sometimes, though here in the UK – the Iraq conflict of 2006 and GM issue today in 2013 would suggest not quite as much as maybe we’d like to pat ourselves on the back over..?
1 day ago Like1
Richard, You criticise governments for not listening to the people, but it has to be said that all governments must take a responsible long view, with the knowledge that only they have. It is all to easy to pander to popuist whim, like the Daily Mail, UKIP or Socilaists, but Government must take the long responsible view, like cut deficits, and bolster defence, law & order which is not popular with the ignorant masses, at least until somethin happens…..
1 day ago
John – my view always has been, is (and always will be) all citizens of all ages have a duty of care to monitor the function of government (in all countries across all continents) to maintain the delicate fine balancing act between the use and the abuse of power.
I was ten years old when Richard Nixon’s abuse of power through the Watergate scandal rocked the world. It was the lowlight at the end of a very ‘chequered’ political career.
Are you stating the ‘ignorant masses’ are all of us ordinary citizens? Are you therefore implying we should all just blindly accept everything politicians say as gospel and do as action without question?
I’m also not altogether sure what the Daily Mail, UKIP or socialism has got to do with your reasoning here either John – would you mind explaining the context of that remark for us?
Politicians are people. They can, have (and do) bring themselves and their offices into question (eg: Profumo and Clinton). They’ve deceived the public (e.g: paying 2nd mortgages on homes and building duck islands from publicly owned tax payers money). Much worse than expenses & sex scandals – is the simple fact that an increasingly large number of them have never worked in ordinary professions and jobs – yet make legislation that affect ‘the ignorant masses’ (as you rather alarmingly refer to them) without this worldly experience. Many of the draconian spending cuts you refer to have only come about as a direct consequence of earlier poor and weak governance. In the case of the UK – I’d encourage you to read Digby Jones’ “Fixing Britain”. Digby has of course – worked extensively in industry and the professions.
Furthermore – take GMO as an example of not only not listening, but also bulldozing through policy and rubbishing quite literally thousands of pages of well-researched analysis of the effects of GMO in both Europe and America (with data collected over a significant period). I’m not going to post all the links up here (as they extend far beyond what you might read in the Daily Mail John). I’ll let you do your own research and draw your own conclusions – something I’d strongly recommend you do if you have (and care about) your grandchildren’s future.
I must conclude in saying that in my experience it’s rare for someone of advancing years to take such a narrow and (at risk of offending you John), rather naive view of government.
The UK – and the whole globe – face some really big challenges right now – and many of the systems in place to tackle them are creaking. I’m not suggesting everyone in Government is evil and/or incompetent – but I certainly think there is ample scope for improvement.
To come back to the subject of the thread – it rather looks like a good few Brasilians feel the same way.
14 hours ago
Jon, Richard et al – from an intellectual, moral, social and just about every other sustainable standpoint, you are of course pretty much spot on, but sadly history tells us thats this is either rather Utopian, or alternatively are we about to witness a “Latin American Spring” fuelled by the information availbale by the web. Maybe this will come to be seen as one of the true great achievements of Tim Berners-Wood.
Back to the sporting front, of course FIFA want the cash, which sports governing body doesn’t, you can’t criticise them for that, but equally they have been under significant pressure to take the competition to continents that have not had it for decades – and Argentina managed to stage the event nearly 40 years ago – so why not Brasil now, if South Africa can manage in 2010? Brasil have one of the greatest sporting heritages in the history of the World cup, and no one asked them to bid.
I don’t think the 5% growth argument really stands up…it’s about how much infrastructure work is required, and there were several other bidders who were all very keen to have the event because it would actually boost their economy – the UK would not have to build any new stadia for example….
I don’t agree with much of what FIFA do, but can’t really criticise them for giving the tournament to one of the greatest soccer nations of all time – I would personally be much more concerned about the Qatar decision in 2022, where several white elephant stadia and indeed small towns will be built…… The issue lies with the local government in Brasil and their inability to equate their desire to be major world players on all fronts with their ability to actually deliver.
I also don’t think you should have been “absurdly proud” Richard re London 2012 – you should have been “justifiably proud”. Major sport and major corporations are inextricably linked, and they will be just as keen to get involved in Brasil.
Finally, does anyone know which decision was made first, the Olympics or World Cup for Brasil? There are two arguments here again as ever – if they have done all the infrastructure work for one, it will benefit the other, versus just “too much too young”…and too fast!!
14 hours ago
Rob – I’m tempted to use a Henry Ford quote here: “History is bunk”. I’m actually less interested in what has been in favour of what might be.
I used ‘absurdly proud’ of 2012 for careful and good reason. I’ll ‘fess up to the fact I thought London 2012 would be a dog’s dinner. I know I’m not alone in that one – but it wasn’t. Yes – it was run by corporations. Yes – a great deal of it affected the lives of local citizens in London in a less than satisfactory manner. But it did move our citizens (me included) in ways I hadn’t expected. That was strange – so whether I was also justifiably proud is second to absurdly.
BUT – London 2012 was decided upon in the world well before the fiscal collapse of 2008. I accept that if you’d relied on sponsorship of London 2012 from SME’s – most of it would have evaporated – I get that. I still think a small % of the action should have gone to SME’s & community – but the event’s passed now.
Brasil’s events are being unpacked POST world fiscal collapse – yet many of the hands steering it are well entrenched in the old ways of doing things. The emerging African and Latin continents have an opportunity to do things differently. Build different events – on a different basis. That’s what’s at stake here. Many of their citizens are stating we want a platform built on something other than “sponsored by Coca Cola”. That is healthy – and the long term ramifications of that for the entire globe looking on are both potentially hugely positive and hugely far-reaching.
At great risk of offending you as well Rob (sorry if I do – goodness – I must check what I’ve put in my breakfast muesli this morning) we are – with the exception of Sandra so far – all western white middle class men on this thread. As such – out of touch and out of step with people in Brasil.
I’m watching what unfolds here with great interest though – as I’m aching for them to shake the status quo here and build a better mousetrap.
As Kevin Kelly the head of ‘Wired’ magazine stated a few years ago: “We have to get better at believing in miracles”.
14 hours ago• Like
Don’t worry Richard, I’m very thick skinned…..but the people who comment on this thread either reflect the membership of the group, or those who can be bothered at the weekend….I suspect that the latter has something to do with it since unfortunately I am working most of the weekend, and contributing to this debate is a very welcome distraction!
World fiscal collapse has obviously not helped, but I don’t really think it has changed the fundamentals – the big companies are still just as keen to back global events as they were 10 years ago, the numbers prove that, and countries are just as keen to host events, so why would the owners of sporting rights and major global events need to reinvent the wheel.
I think there is actually plenty of capital available in the global system, it has just been concentrated in the hands of far too few people / organisations, and alongside this, the real structural problem is that the guardians of this capital have created a “real world / SME liquidity crisis” which many of the forum members will no doubt be familiar with.
The UK is a good example – the government has put in place major initiatives to boost liquidity, but it is very slow to happen / inconsistent at best – because traditional bankers are no longer genuine risk takers, or even business people, they just read what the computer tells them….but massive risks and bets are taken by the tiny minority of bank staff who run the “global financial casino” – a hackneyed and over-used phrase, but very appropriate!!
This post is heading down a very dangerous route (1917) here which I didn’t really intend, and has rather got off the Brasil topic…so finally
If one thinks it is appropriate to draw a parallel bewteen Brasil and the Middle East, it will be interesting to see what pans out in the Arab world over the next few years and see if the “Arab Spring” actually delivers anything better – or just upheaval and greater poverty. The reality is that someone / small group is going to end up in power in these countries, and they may well be no better at delivering for the people than those that preceded them. Egypt does not look very promising for example.
Truly great, genuinely philanthropic and altruistic leaders with vision are very rare – Mandela being the shining example of the last 50 years. I have often considered the view that the most efficient way (in theory) of running a country is benign dictatorship – (Salazaar did quite a good job in Portugal for a couple of decades), but the trouble is that the Orwellian maxim always kicks in in the end…..which is fundamentally what brought Maggie Thatcher down!!
Right, back to the spread sheets and proposals – shall have the cricket and rowing on in the background though!!
13 hours ago
That was last week… latest update…
I’d like to add that one of the best outcomes of the riots was congressional repudiation of a executive-introduced constitutional amendment bill (is it a bill in the UK? or a motion?) that if approved would have prevented our “procuradores de justiça” (which have more or less the role of District Attorneys in US) from carrying out investigations on suspected/alleged corruption charges.
Also very significant is that Brazil won yesterday the Fifa’s test tournament and despite intensive TV coverage and some fireworks after the match was over, I saw very little signs of public interest on that this morning. Brazil is definitely changing. i suspect most people believes Spain was paid out or talked into losing the match. (I’m not saying that to have happened.)
Food for thought…
Jonathan L Davey
Please add your thoughts below… thank you.